080: Surprising Ways Leadership Is Changing

1. Leaders want trust but they don’t want to be transparent.

Trust comes from transparency, which eventually promotes a healthy culture and results in a growing company. As leaders, we don’t know it all and shouldn’t pretend like we know it all. By being transparent with our teams, we earn their trust and they’ll be more transparent with us.

2. Trust will be more important than ever moving in the future.

The skills it takes to build culture in person are different from the skills it takes to build culture virtually. In person, we expect to build trust and earn it. Because the workplace is moving to remote, more leaders will need to start with trust. And employees may need to walk into a company trusting their leaders right away.

3. If you need to have someone in the office to know they’re working, you might need to spend some time in self-reflection.

We hire adults and we do due diligence to make sure they are the right person, skillset, and fit for our company. Once that’s in place, we need to trust them to do their job, whether that’s in person or remote. If that’s a major sticking point for a leader, it may be time for them to question their ability to lead.

Clay Scroggins on Twitter, LinkedIn, and official site

Tricia Sciortino on Instagram and LinkedIn

Lisa Zeeveld on Instagram and LinkedIn

BELAY’s Accounting service

Clay Scroggins book, The Aspiring Leader’s Guide to the Future

(03:04) Clay talks about his most embarrassing moment on stage.

(06:17) Clay discusses his journey from leading different campuses at North Point to going out on his own just a few months ago.

(10:14) What are some of the biggest things Clay learned working with Andy Stanley?

(14:16) Clay gives an overview of his new book, The Aspiring Leader’s Guide to the Future: 9 Surprising Ways Leadership is Changing.

(21:07) What are the overarching themes in the 9 surprising ways?

(22:39) Will leaders be blindsided by any of these ways leadership is changing?

(27:07) Conflict is something that we’re becoming less skilled at than in the past.

(29:40) Clay talks about all the ways our audience can get in touch with him.

Clay Scroggins:

We’re going to start with a basis of trust. If it’s broken, if it’s fractured, then we’re going to address it. We’re going to have to have some of those hard conversations, but we’re going to start with, hey, I trust you. I trust you. I trust you. I think we got to start with that.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to One Next Step, the most practical business podcast in the world, helping you get more done, grow your business and lead your team with confidence with tips and tools you didn’t get in business school. Here are your hosts, Trisha Sciortino and Lisa Zeeveld.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Welcome to One Next Step, the practical business podcast that helps you run your business so it stops running you. I’m LZ. And today we’re joined by Clay Scroggins to talk about some of the ways in which leadership is changing. Clay is such a fabulous leader and speaker. Even better. He has a new book coming out in January called The Aspiring Leader’s Guide to the Future: Nine Surprising Ways Leadership is Changing. He’s also the host of the How to Lead podcast and of course, worked as a lead pastor for different North Point campuses for over a decade. Clay, Welcome to the podcast.

Clay Scroggins:

LZ, thank you so much for having me. Really grateful to get to be with you and all of your hundreds of thousands of listeners today.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yes. Hundreds of thousands. Thank you. Thank you. I like that. I’m going to manifest that.

Clay Scroggins:

I know. I know. It’s been so cool to see the success of the podcast and the success of your business, and I’m just really grateful to get to be a part of it. So thank you.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Well, you have done so much for BELAY. You have spoken to our team on numerous times. We love your first book. You are just in our DNA. And so it’s truly an honor to have you here with us.

Clay Scroggins:

Thank you. Can I just say LZ, one of my favorite events I have ever spoken at was speaking at… your co-founders asked me to come and give a Christmas devotional at your Christmas party.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yes, yes.

Clay Scroggins:

At the time I was a pastor at a church. And so that was very normal for me. What was not normal was there was an open bar before and during and after, and I was toward the back half of the program and it was the first time that I had ever spoken to a crowd that was a little sauced. And man, everything was better. The jokes were better, the engagement. I mean, people were just all in. It was so fun. I mean, the birth of Jesus is always a big deal, but when everybody’s had a margarita or two, it’s really great news.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I mean, that just kind of speaks to come communion, right?

Clay Scroggins:

There you go.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Should we just have bigger cups for the communion?

Clay Scroggins:

There you go.

Lisa Zeeveld:

And then worship becomes, takes just to a whole new level at that point.

Clay Scroggins:

There you go.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. So, that’s a great fun way to start. And we always like to give some fun details, maybe stuff that other people don’t know about you. And so I’ve got a fun question. You’ve been speaking for years and we know that you’re a world class speaker, but let’s be honest, we’ve all had moments we’d like to forget from the stage. For fun, would you be willing to share with us and our listeners your most embarrassing moment on stage? And no, it can’t be praying over the BELAY team when we’ve had a few drinks.

Clay Scroggins:

That was not an embarrassing moment. That was a blast.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Good.

Clay Scroggins:

I mean a total blast. I mean, there are three situations that come to mind. I was hosting a big conference one time. I had to apologize because of something that I did, that was embarrassing. I was speaking to a group of college students and I was driving home that night and a friend of mine who was there that night texted me and said, “So did you hear?” And I was like, “Hear what?” And he said, “Your fly was unzipped the whole message”. There’s that one. That was miserable. But the worst probably was one of the first times, I used to speak a lot at this environment with… it’s a mentoring program for high school students. And I had been dating this girl. I’ve been married for 15 years.

Clay Scroggins:

So this was probably 17 years ago. I was dating this girl that I had only gone on a couple dates with her and there were no more after this. But I made the terrible mistake of, we had gone to a dinner at this really nice place. It was around Christmas time. I remember I was trying to impress her. I spent more money on that date than I had ever spent before on a date. I couldn’t believe how much she ordered or how freely she ordered. I’m not saying she ate a bunch of food. I’m just saying she was very free in her ordering. And I was a college student or I was just getting out of college, getting into grad school. And I used our date as an illustration on stage. And afterwards, I get this tap on my shoulder and I turn around and it was her.

Lisa Zeeveld:

No, no.

Clay Scroggins:

I didn’t know that she was going to be there. She had never been there before. I don’t know why she was there still to this day. But I was like, “Oh, my gosh”. And I was not disparaging toward her, but I definitely was very open about how shocked I was at how freely she ordered and how little money I had. And anyway, I remember just going beet red. But anyway, you learn quickly when you’re speaking in front of other people to just be very careful about the stories you tell and the people that you throw under the bus.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right. Right. I feel like you always, of course, we know that you don’t ever say names, but I feel like you have to also change some key components of this story.

Clay Scroggins:

Totally. Totally.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right.

Clay Scroggins:

I changed nothing. I think I used her name. I mean, I was young in this. I mean, I was so naive. There was nothing in my mind that said she might be here. Zero.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right. Right. I feel like that’s when you get a book and it says based on the events, right?

Clay Scroggins:

Exactly. Exactly.

Lisa Zeeveld:

And so they can kind of get away with having some similarities, but they’ve added enough color to it too. So, that’s great. Well, tell me a little bit about your journey coming up from North Point, leading different campuses to where you are now. You’re out on your own, right?

Clay Scroggins:

I am, yeah. Made a big move about three months ago. So I mean, I grew up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. They loved their football there. Moved to Atlanta, Georgia in 1998. Yeah. They roll with the tide hard for sure. Moved to Atlanta in 1998 to go to Georgia Tech, studied engineering, was not good at it. I knew pretty quickly this is not what I’m supposed to be doing. I told the Registrar. I had to have this brutal meeting where I needed some approval to get into some other classes. I said, “Hey”. She said, “What are you going to do with this degree?” I said, “I’m going to get a Master’s in Theology. I’m not even going to use it”. And I said, “Why don’t we make a deal? I will promise to never use this degree if you’ll give it to me”.

Clay Scroggins:

I did end up graduating and moved to Dallas, Texas to go to seminary. I studied theology there. Ended up getting a master’s degree and a doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary. But the best thing that happened there was I met my amazing wife who is a Texan and we moved to Atlanta. And yeah, I spent the last 18 years working at this network of churches in the Atlanta area called North Point Ministries. Andy Stanley is the senior pastor of these and I did a lot of student ministry. But then eventually for about the last 10 years, I was a campus pastor at three different campuses. One way up in the Northern suburbs called Cumming. One in Alpharetta, the original first campus called North Point Community Church. And then the last two years, I’ve been at Buckhead church, which is in the city of Atlanta.

Clay Scroggins:

And about three months, because of the… I’ve written some leadership books that had given me a lot of opportunity to be able to talk to religious organizations, churches, nonprofits, but also surprisingly, I mean, four out of five speaking requests I was getting were with businesses, for profit companies. And the book, How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge, I just quickly learned, oh, this resonates with anyone. I mean, I wrote it for the 98% of people that aren’t in charge, which is most of us obviously, and those opportunities just became, I became so interested in them. I just thought, “Gosh, what would it be like to do this full time?” So it was a huge left turn for me in my career to step away and resign from what was in some way… I mean, I would’ve thought it was my dream job, but there comes a time, LZ, I’m sure you’ve experienced this in life where the job is great, but it’s not right.

Clay Scroggins:

And that’s kind of where I had gotten, where as great as this job was, it’s not right for me right now. And yeah, I’ve been doing, I’ve created some leadership resources that I’m getting to help companies with and then doing a lot of corporate speaking and having a lot of conversations like this.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I just want to pause and celebrate the fact that you had that much interest in the book and interest from, let’s just say for-profit businesses, right?

Clay Scroggins:

Yes.

Lisa Zeeveld:

You coming from ministry. And I know that again, going back to BELAY, we have really leaned into North Point Ministries and we’ve leaned into you. We’re a for-profit business, but we understand that God is our number one and we want Him in our business. And there’s so many great principles in the Bible that talk about how to be a phenomenal leader. And I think that the fact that you could leave ministry and really share the knowledge that you’ve gained being in ministry to businesses is huge. Really, really huge. And so I just, I wanted to say that real quick.

Clay Scroggins:

Thanks for saying. It’s been a blessing for me. I mean, I just have loved getting to serve men and women who are Monday to Friday trying to serve other people as well. For sure. It’s been a whole lot of fun.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. Well, what are some of the big things that you learn working with Andy?

Clay Scroggins:

Oh, goodness gracious. It’s hard to narrow them down because I definitely felt like it was like a master’s degree in leadership for sure. I mean, I would just say a few things. I mean, he just has a very open handed way. I think maybe one of the blessings has been that his dad was the pastor of First Baptist Atlanta for a long time. So he kind of grew up as a son of a megachurch pastor. And then being in ministry himself, I just really appreciated how open handed he was. I remember when Passion City Church started in Atlanta, that’s a pastor by a guy named Louie Giglio, who’s one to Andy’s best friends. Andy just let off our staff meeting by saying, “Hey, I just want everybody to know, you probably have heard Louie’s starting a church. We’re so excited for him. If any of you want to go there, if you want to work there, I just want you to know you don’t have to whisper about it. You can just talk about it”. Be open about it.

Clay Scroggins:

I saw over, over again throughout the last 18 years of how he modeled that open handed way of life. I mean, it really is probably the foundation is this deep belief that God really is the one who gives and takes away. And if somebody on our team is interested in another job, let’s talk about it. You don’t have to whisper about it. There wasn’t a whole lot of fear of having to interview in secret. I feel like that was a one of the remarkable things that I learned from him and just the way he helped shape the culture. I mean, it really was a phenomenal place to work, really healthy work culture. And there’s so much about it that I personally miss. But yeah, I would say that open handedness was probably one of the best things I learned from him.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I find it so interesting how business leaders don’t like transparency, but yet they want trust. And you can’t have one without the other. Right. And so what Andy did for you guys with that open handedness is he actually, he could trust you and you could trust him because there wasn’t anything hidden in the shadows. And sometimes the transparency hurts. It doesn’t feel good, feedback, or if somebody doesn’t like your idea as a leader, but that is what it takes to have a healthy culture and a growing company. Because as a leader, we don’t know it all. And we certainly shouldn’t pretend we know it all, right?

Clay Scroggins:

LZ, I mean, you’re hosting this podcast. You’re doing the questions, but you’re dropping some tweet bombs right now. I mean, that line that you said, leaders want trust, but they don’t want to be transparent. They don’t want transparency, which the connection between transparency and trust is, I mean, it’s peanut butter and jelly. I mean, it’s ham and burger. I mean, they go together. That’s phenomenal. You’re so right.

Trisha Sciortino:

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Lisa Zeeveld:

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Lisa Zeeveld:

Well, I’d love for you to share more about your book, The Aspiring Leader’s Guide to the Future: Nine Surprising Ways Leadership is Changing. Please give us an overview of what’s included in that.

Clay Scroggins:

Yeah, sure. Well, as I mentioned wrote a book 2017 or released the book 2017 called How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge. And the concept of that book is really just that leadership is not about authority. Leadership’s not about a title. It’s not about a position. And we all know that. I mean, we know it intuitively, but the lie that I’ve got to get into my boss’s job so that I can really have influence, so that I can really lead is just, it’s baked in all of us. I mean, we all believe it. We all believe that whoever is the one that is in charge is the leader. I mean, we believe it in school. We believe it. I mean, it’s just as much as we know that’s not actually true, it’s baked within all of us.

Clay Scroggins:

And what we do know that is true is that ultimately the people that make a big difference in this world are the people that have influence, not the people that have authority. And so the book was really trying to empower people, trying to call people out of the shadows of, oh, I’m not a leader or that’s the person in charge. And it’s been so fun to carry that message and just get to talk about it so much. So I released a book a couple of years after that, which looking back on, I released it in September of 2019. If I could do it over again, I would’ve waited and released it September of 2020, because I feel like it was so relevant to what we went through in 2020. But how out a lead in a world of distraction was really all about, we keep our fingers on the dial of noise and distraction and it, and we use it.

Clay Scroggins:

We actually use the distraction to keep us from having to pay attention to the stuff that’s inside of us, that if we paid attention to would actually make us a better leader.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Sure, yeah.

Clay Scroggins:

So it was really a book on self leadership. So as I move toward this third opportunity to release something, obviously I, like everyone else was just thinking so much about the future of, man, what is this new world going to be? I mean, we have gone light speed into the future. I mean, we have compressed, It feels like a decade of change into the last two years. And everybody knows that leadership is changing. Everybody knows that the way to lead in the future is not the same as the way to the way we led in the past. But the question of, well, how is it changing? How do we need to become a different kind of leader? How can we become the kind of leader that the future’s actually demanding? That just was a really interesting concept to me. And obviously, I don’t read palms. I’m not an astrologist. I mean, I can’t predict the future.

Lisa Zeeveld:

That’s not your side hustle. You’re not doing that.

Clay Scroggins:

Exactly. Nor can anyone really predict the future?

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right, right. Right. You just crush somebody’s dreams right there. You know that, right?

Clay Scroggins:

Yeah. Well, I think they probably, surely they already know that they can’t. But I mean, I can promise you if I could predict the future, I don’t think I would be working in the area of leadership development, but this was a way for me to kind of put my thoughts out into the world about Wayne Gretzky, that quote, that we’ve all heard over and over again, probably. Wayne Gretzky is a famous hockey player who said if you want to be great in hockey, you’ve got to skate to where the puck’s going to be, not to where the puck has been. So I resonate so deeply with that idea that I want to become the kind of leader that the future’s demanding. And in order to do that, we have to know, well, what kind of leader is the future demanding?

Clay Scroggins:

How is leadership changing? So this is a way for me to just hang my dart board up on the wall and go, this is how I see it changing. But honestly, LZ, what I’m most excited about with this book is I hope to generate conversation. I mean, I’ve got thoughts on how I think it’s changing. And a lot of it’s based on research and study and a lot of thought leadership that I’m borrowing from other people, but everybody has thoughts on how leadership is changing. And I think it’s worth talking about so that we can start to develop into the best kind of leader that the future is going to require.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I think one of the ways that we see it here at BELAY and my friends who own companies is really the different generations that are within a business, right? If you look at the baby boomers that are getting ready for retirement, those that are Gen X, Gen Z, the millennials, I think that if we lean into the millennials, we really see how leadership is changing and what type of leader we need to be, because certainly to your point and to the Wayne Gretzky quote, it’s not where it was. It’s no longer about suits. You and I right now are doing this podcast from our home. It’s the comfortability. It goes back to that transparency and that trust. And so, yeah, I think it’s like you said, it’s being demanded of us.

Clay Scroggins:

It is being demanded of us. And that’s not fun. I mean, there’s a lot of people I know LZ that are like, well, there are timeless truths, and there absolutely are. I mean, there are things that will not change. I mean, this would have been better if we were face to face and in person. It would’ve been better in the sense that there’s a deeper connection that can happen in person. But we cannot deny the fact that the convenience that this has saved. I mean, I love what Ed Bastian, I feel like has been a great leader to watch during the pandemic because of the way he has led Delta through the pandemic. But I’ve heard a couple of interviews with him where he’s talked about, look, it is better for the earth, it’s better for the world, it’s better for dads, it’s better for moms if they travel less and do more meetings online.

Clay Scroggins:

If that is what serves them best and it’s more convenient to do that, it will allow them to be better fathers and mothers, and it’ll be better for our world, which I just thought that is remarkable that he was willing to say that because clearly he wants people to get up on 12C and fly somewhere. And so clearly, there’s nothing that can change some of the timeless things, but there are some changes that I think are for the better. I think there are some changes that are happening that are not all for the worse. I mean, I think some of them really are, it’s a little bit like a trampoline when you put a little bit more effort into it and you end up bouncing higher, you end up reaching a higher altitude. And I think that’s what we’re doing. I think we’re experiencing a bit of an elevated position of leadership in a positive way.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I love that. Is there any overarching theme behind those nine ways?

Clay Scroggins:

The big theme is that it is the fact that there is change. I mean, that’s the biggest theme. But I would say some of the keywords that I would guess if… so crazy LZ, the way writing a book works. I mean, I wrote this book months ago and then didn’t touch it for a while because the publishers got to go through the whole process and the editorial review and all of that. And then you pick it back up again. And I just did this last week because I just read the audio. I did the audio recording for the audio book and gosh, that’s such a scary process because you pick it up and you’re like, “Gosh, I don’t remember all of this and I’m hoping it’s good”.

Clay Scroggins:

And for me, honestly, I mean, I’m a, just like most people, I’m a self critic. And so yeah, there were parts of it that I was like, “Gosh, I wish I could go and make this better. I wish I could go add to this”. And then there were parts that I was like, “Oh, I’m really grateful this made it into it”. If somebody were to read through it holistically in one sitting, I would think some of the words that would come out, I mean, a lot of what you talked about, I think that’s why I resonated so deeply with your connection between transparency and trust because transparency, vulnerability, authenticity, trust, conflict, I would say those are some big themes that I think as we look into the future, we have to pay more attention to those than maybe we had to in the past.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. Are you predicting that there is one of those that you think maybe a leader is going to be blindsided by?

Clay Scroggins:

Yeah. What a great question. I don’t know how blindsided they’ll be by it, but I do think there are, I would say maybe there’s some of those that will be harder for us to adopt or us to adapt to. I would say the concept of trust, if I can spend just a minute or so talking about that. Here’s what I’ve noticed that I think everybody’s noticed, that when we made this radical transition and what’s so great about BELAY as you all were leading the way because you have a virtual company. I mean, you have created an amazing culture virtually. Well, nine out of 10 companies have not done that. I mean, their culture was in person, in the building, in the room, around the water cooler, in the break room, at the event together. I mean, that’s just what they relied on.

Clay Scroggins:

And the skills it takes to build culture in person are just different than the skills that are required to build culture virtually. And trust is one of those where I would say in the past, trust could be demanded. It could be expected. We expected employees as a company to trust us. I expected people as a boss to trust me. And I was able to give people a season to earn my trust. I could watch what they did. I could observe their performance. And once they earned my trust, I was able to give them trust. But I think in the future, because there’s so much remote, there’s so much virtual culture that’s being created, I think it is going to be demanded for leaders to give trust, to start with trust and not to make people earn it. I think it’s going to be incumbent upon employees to walk into a company and say, “I’m starting with trust. I’m not going to make them earn trust”.

Clay Scroggins:

A little bit like in our judicial system, how we do the innocent until proven guilty concept, which is, I mean, it is such a core foundational principle to what we believe about humanity and how we treat people. Even in the process where someone has been prosecuted, we still believe that person is innocent until they have been proven guilty. And I would say the same concept for trust, we need to make even more of that evolution or transition to, we are going to start with a basis of trust. If it’s broken, if it’s fractured, then we’re going to address it. We’re going to have to have some of those hard conversations, but we’re going to start with, “hey, I trust you. I trust you. I trust you.” I think we got to start with that.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. And it’s interesting that you chose trust because when we have prospects reach out to us or if I’m at a neighborhood party and somebody just wants to know about the business and you start out with oh, virtual assistant or Bookkeeper, or we don’t have a brick and mortar, that’s the first question. I’m not a betting woman, but I would bet good money that they’re going to ask me, how do you trust that they’re actually doing their work? And I think that, and hopefully, I don’t offend anybody here by saying this, but I think that it really does put a magnifying glass on your leadership if you have to have somebody in an office to know that they’re working, right? I feel like it’s a person thing, that if that is what’s tripping you up, then you might know not be a great leader. I just said it.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Oh my gosh, I just said it, because we have to hire adults. That was Brian Miles, one of his very thing. We hire adults. We have to have done our due diligence to make sure that we hire the right people. Outside of being an adult, they have the right skillset to do it. And to your point, the trust. And so yeah, gosh, there’s probably a lot of self-reflection that needs to happen when people read this part of your book on the trust component.

Clay Scroggins:

Well, and again, it’s not to say that when the trust is broken or when something happens or when there’s numerous meetings where they haven’t shown up or their videos turned off or they haven’t hit their deadline, I mean, I think we’ve got to be more quantitative in our goals that we’re setting, more quantitative in the way we’re evaluating to give people more clearer metrics. Because there is less feel, there’s less office feel that you have, but I think it’s even more important that we become adept at conflict. I spend a lot of time in this book talking about conflict because that’s becoming a skill that people are just not as comfortable with as maybe in the past. I think in general, our emotional intelligence as a society is going down because of the new way of communicating.

Clay Scroggins:

We have all these people with keyboard courage that just want to say whatever they want to say behind the keys and then send it off. We’ve all done that. I mean, who hasn’t ripped off an email with tons of emotion that if you were there in person with the person that you would’ve never said? I mean, we’ve all done it. And so because of that, that in person or on the phone or face to face, over video, that idea of conflict, it’s not getting easier, it’s not going away and it’s never going to be perfect. I would say the kinds of conversation that we’re having in the workplace or the stakes are higher. There was a day where you didn’t talk about religion at work. You didn’t talk about your sexuality at work. You didn’t talk about the way you see gender at work.

Clay Scroggins:

But we’re talking about race. We’re talking about people’s personal view on health and what they believe about the way to stay healthy and the way to keep a community healthy. We’re talking about the way we see gender. We’re talking about the way we see, the way we view sexuality. I mean, these kinds of conversations that we are having in the workplace are so much more complicated than what’s our dress code going to be? I mean that one, we look at that and we’re like, oh my gosh, softball like that. I would love to have that conversation, but because of that, because I think we’re growing, I would say our skills of handling conflict are less than what they had been in previous generations. I would also say the kinds of conversations we’re having have become escalated.

Clay Scroggins:

We’ve got to have a plan. We’ve got to become more prepared to have more productive conflict and not be afraid of having it if we’re going to be leaders at the future demand. So I put a guide in the chapter on conflict, one of the things I’m most excited about LZ is being able to just give people a plan. All right, here’s a guide that you can use, a simple way to think through. If you got to have a hard conversation with your boss, if you got to have a hard conversation with an employee on your team, if you have to address something, that’s going to be really challenging, here’s a way you can prepare, walk through a process and be able to see a more productive conversation happen.

Lisa Zeeveld:

I love that. I love tools. I love tools. And I know our listeners do too. So how can our audience get in touch with you?

Clay Scroggins:

Well, I am on social media, all the platforms.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Okay, good.

Clay Scroggins:

I’m less active on TikTok than on Instagram or on Twitter.

Lisa Zeeveld:

I like that you say less active though. The fact that you’re active is good.

Clay Scroggins:

Well, I’m on there, but I’m not exactly dropping videos every day. But yeah, I’ve got website, clayscroggins.com. There’s a contact me button there. And yeah, I would love to hear from people, would love to have this conversation. I really do hope that this becomes a two-way conversation, this becomes a conversation that we’re all having on, hey, what do you see? How do you see leadership changing and how can we begin to adapt and develop?

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I love that. Well, every single thing you write is fantastic. And so I can’t wait to get my hands on a copy of this. Clay, the conversation has been so good and I’m excited that you have agreed to stick around for a bonus question on what leaders can do to get ahead of and prepare for these changes.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Hey guys, you definitely don’t want to miss it. To hear that clip, subscribe to our email list, and we’ll send you a link to our bonus content or visit onenextsteppodcast.com where you can find a link in the show notes. Until next time, own your journey. Join us next week for more practical tips and actionable tools to advance your business one step at a time.

Trisha Sciortino:

Next week, we’re joined by McKenzie Reeves Decker, COO of System & Soul who will chat with us about how she works as the number two to a visionary CEO and makes the most of their relationship. This is great information for anyone who works directly for a leader. So you don’t want to miss it. Here’s a quick preview.

McKenzie Reeves:

In our organization, we talk about team members being the right fit. And FIT is an acronym. And FIT is does it fuel their unique ability? Does it impact their trajectory where they want to be and where the company wants to be? And then is it timely for the business? Is it timely for the person? And I think that’s true with the CEO-COO relationship.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to One Next Step. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or follow us on Spotify. Then join us next time for more practical business tips and tools to help you get more done, and grow your business and lead your team with confidence. For more episodes, show notes and helpful resources, visit onenextsteppodcast.com.