122: How Fractional Hybrid Workforces Can Benefit Churches

1. As a society, we’re continuing to move more toward a hybrid workforce.

In 2017, 5.2% of staff worked from home. And as of 2022, we were at 53%. So if you hire for an in-person role, you’ve already disqualified half of the workforce meaning the quality of the staff that you can hire is half as good as it was before. Because of that, you’re limiting yourself if you don’t imagine and reimagine the new and different ways to staff for your business.

 

2. By embracing new and modern ways to staff, you have a better shot at long-term retention.

How are you resourcing your high capacity leaders to be successful? By providing them with fractional assistance, you’re giving them a little bit of time and support, along with the ability to accomplish more faster. And all of a sudden you’ve given them the resources to be successful. And so they’re more willing to stay longer term. At the same time, those virtual staff are willing to stay longer because you’ve given them flexibility.

 

3. Engaging in new and different staffing gives you more cost-effective, safer ways to grow leaders.

When you have young leaders who are super high-capacity, you are trying to find steps for them to take in their leadership. And being able to give them fractional support — whether it’s a gig economy type role, a creative role or it’s a virtual assistant — gives them some really low stakes management and delegation experience that you can then coach them, in a much safer way, on how to manage people.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

We are in a moment where the landscape of staffing, the landscape of the type of talent that you can attract and how you attract them is radically changing. And you have two options. You can move forward and learn and change and adapt. Or you can put it on the list of reasons why your business is harder to do than everybody else’s. And for businesses to succeed, it’s gonna be attracting the very best talent you can and doing everything you can to keep them. 

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Welcome to One Next Step, the most practical business podcast in the world. You’re now one simple tip, practical tool and small step away from growing your business. One Next Step is brought to you by BELAY, the incredible 100% remote organization, revolutionizing productivity with Virtual Assistants, Bookkeepers and Social Media Managers. Accomplish more, juggle less. Modern staffing from BELAY. And now to your hosts.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Welcome to One Next Step, the practical business podcast that helps you run your business so it stops running you. I’m LZ. Today I’m gonna talk to my friend, co-host, and BELAY’s senior marketing manager, Ryan Fitzgerald. Ryan came to us from North Point Ministries here in Atlanta and has a lot of experience finding unique staffing solutions for his organization while learning to embrace the transition to a remote, hybrid culture. Today he’s gonna walk us through the many benefits of a hybrid workplace, share with us his experiences, and talk about why some leaders are often hesitant to make the change. But before we start, I’d love to tell you a little bit about BELAY. With modern staffing from BELAY, businesses and leaders can focus on growth without the unnecessary overhead or learning curves associated with hiring and onboarding full-time employees. BELAY is the incredible 100% remote organization revolutionizing productivity with our Virtual Assistants, Bookkeepers and Social Media Managers. Accomplish more, juggle less. And get back to what only you can do, growing your business with modern staffing from BELAY. All right guys, let’s dive into the conversation. 

Lisa Zeeveld:

Hey, Ryan. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Thank you so much, LZ. It’s funny to be in this seat. This is a different seat for me, so I’m excited for today.

Lisa Zeeveld:

I know. Is it bad that I’m ‘Ha, ha ha. I’m looking forward to it.’

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Well, you can ask me anything you want now, so yeah, no, put me on the hot seat I guess.

Lisa Zeeveld:

I like being in charge. I’m like being in charge. No, I’m gonna take it easy on you, so don’t worry. Don’t worry. 

Ryan Fitzgerald:

That’s very kind. 

Lisa Zeeveld:

But you know, I mean, you do this, you’re usually over here with me. So let’s start out by asking you a fun question. You’ve worked in church for years, so with that, what is the most, hmm, let me think about this maybe most unique moment you’ve ever experienced at church.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Oh, gosh, yeah. No, I spent almost 15 years working at North Point here in Atlanta. And like a very successful, large, large church. And one of the most unique things I got to do was help start one of our new kind of campuses on the east side of Atlanta. It’s taking kind of a big suburban model and, and bring it in town to a kind of artsy in-town neighborhood. And so yeah, we opened on the campus of Emory, which is right across from the CDC in a hotel for a while, like a ballroom at the Emery Conference Center. And we were meeting there every week, and so like the very first week we opened up, and this wasn’t just, there were a lot of different types of church models and portable things, but this was more like a concert. It was like two full tractor-trailers worth of equipment. Midnight loading and the whole thing. And while we saw some crazy things, and had to clean up from some of the most insane weddings, there was like a wedding where everyone was dressed as clowns one time and all sorts of stuff. But my was pretty wild. 

Lisa Zeeveld:

I’ll take that one offline. I need to hear about that one.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Tell you about that later. I wish I had pictures. But no, my very favorite thing was we open up very first day. We have our kind of elementary environment, the kind of the environment for the kids set up over on one side of the hotel right next to the pool. And as parents are checking in their elementary-aged kids, these four large, burly German scientists who were there to work with the CDC, walked through on the way to the pool in Speedos and a towel around their neck. And it’s just like, ‘Hey, welcome to church, welcome to church on day one,’ and these like very thick German accents of these guys kinda walking towards the pool. And that was when I realized we were gonna have all sorts of really unique experiences. But no, it was a lot of fun. And we got to we got to do a lot of cool things and, and later move into an old church building and rehab it, which was really neat. And so lots of cool stuff. But yeah, no, the big burley German scientist, that was probably one of the most unique things I had to figure out. How do you create a great customer experience when that is what you’re walking through.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Wow. Wow. Well, I have to stop and say, my mom lived in Germany for a while, and the Germans do have a really good sense of humor, so I’m wondering did they see all those signs promoting church and think, you know what, why don’t we have a little bit of fun here?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You know, they have interesting choices of swimwear as well. You know, it was a statement and I think they did have fun. So I don’t blame ’em, but.

Lisa Zeeveld:

No, when you have that much confidence in yourself, I mean, I applaud you. I really do.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Good for them. Good for them.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. No, that’s amazing. I love that. That was a good laugh for today. I appreciated that. Well just give us a quick overview of what you were talking about. I know you’ve spent some time on the road, I know that you’re sharing and really starting good conversations around how staffing is changing now after the pandemic. And so there’s a couple of different, words being thrown around, whether it’s flexible or hybrid. Here at BELAY we like fun terms, so it’s modern. Tell me a little bit more about that and what you’re sharing with folks.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Yeah, and the whole idea of approaching staffing from a more modern idea, rethinking the way that we staff our teams, embracing some of these cultural trends was something we had to figure out at Decatur City a long time ago because we were kind of starting this newer model. It was a scaled down model, and it was like, ‘Hey, where do you, where do you rethink the way that you slice and dice your budget?’ And for us, it was the s and b line item. It was like the first place to start. And so we you know, we really had to think about that. And I think what we’re seeing in, in the industries now is a more wide scale embracing of that. But hybrid really means to me, and really to us at BELAY, fractional, which is like, you only hire what you need in virtual, which opens up the options to all sorts of new talent in ways to solve problems.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

So when we say hybrid, we mean a remote workforce for the roles that it makes most sense. And you know, what we’re seeing across the board with that is when you embrace the, the new ways to hire, new ways to solve problems you get a greater impact. You maximize efficiencies, you foster long-term commitment. And honestly, it ends up preventing turnover. And so when you say modern, it really does mean like, hey, a new solution to an old problem that has better solutions has better outcomes than the previous way the staff did.

Lisa Zeeveld:

You know, on one hand, I well, I shouldn’t say that on every single hand and foot. I hate it that it took a pandemic to bring remote work and that sort of idea of modern and flexible to the forefront. But I’m also excited because this is something that we had been embracing for years and really talking about and through this activity that’s happening in the world right now, you are given the opportunity and the platform to talk about it. Do you find it surprising how quickly organizations have sort of adopted this?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You know, BELAY, 10 years ago when it started, really pioneered this idea of virtual workforces. And you know, I was in a role at North Point at the same time, and we partnered with some of the early versions of BELAY to pioneer some virtual groups directors and resourcing other churches with things like that at the time, which was a, you know, and that was like my first introduction to that way back then. But what does wild is if you look at stats in 2017, 5.2% of staff worked from home. And here in 2022, the number is now 53%. That’s an entire decimal point in less than five years.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Wow. I think you need to repeat that. So 5%…

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Yeah. 5.2% of people worked at home in 2017, just 2017. And mind you, BELAYs been doing this five years before that. But only 5% people at home and now over half and growing and the stats are showing this is not just a response to the pandemic. My belief, and what we’re really seeing, is this is really sped up a trend that was happening in society, a societal trend, a sociological trend. People are rediscovering their values and how they want to engage with things. Technology has facilitated the ability to do more from different places in different ways. And we’ve seen this over time. A few years ago, the whole idea of results only work environment, that was like a big trend and a lot of corporations moving away from clocking in and clocking out. We’ve seen the workforce changing over time, but what we’ve seen in the last five years is what I think is a decade speed up that the pandemic was kinda like hitting the speed up thing on Mario Kart, you know, where you just kind of take off in this kind of societal trend of staffing.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. And I do love the residual benefits of that. And, I don’t wanna get off on a tangent here, but the benefits to families. And the overall benefit to wholeness and wellness to our team members to our employees, I think is huge. And so I love the fact that this modern way to think of staffing, modern staffing is becoming a real conversation and thrilled that you’re at the helm of starting that and continuing to open up other companies who may feel like that was something great when we had to do it. Is it something I wanna continue?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You know, there are large companies in Atlanta that I’ve talked to that they realized pretty quickly they were already moving towards a more decentralized office type environment where maybe they didn’t have dedicated space. You know, Chick-fil-A in their corporate offices had made a big move in the kind of five years prior to the pandemic of changing their whole office situation and the way that they engaged in work. And I’ve heard rumors, I don’t know that I can go on record saying it’s totally true or not, but like, I don’t know that they planned and a lot of other companies ever planned to have all of their staff back in the office again. And I think so much of the idea of thinking about hybrid or modern working and staffing solutions, it’s flexible. Like flexible is the word that really defines it. And it’s looking at the roles and asking, ‘Hey, what’s required, what’s needed? And how do we solve this problem in the best way?’ Because that’s gonna open us up to the best talent possible. Cause what we’re seeing, if we’ve moved to 50%, and I don’t know, I have no way of predicting how far that number’s gonna go, but at the very least right now, if you hire for an in-person role, you’ve already disqualified half of the workforce. Wow.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Wow. Yeah. Crazy.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

The quality of the staff that you can hire is half as good as it was before when it comes from just like a pure percentage standpoint. And so you’re really limiting yourself if you don’t imagine and reimagine the new and different ways to staff for your business. Doesn’t mean every role can be remote. There’s obviously things that require in person. I come from an event background, obviously you have to be in person to produce a live event or whatever it might be. But I do think that really asking that question of what can be virtual, what can be remote, the gig economy was something we were seeing before the pandemic. And that has sped up as well. So in a lot of different industries, for a while it was mainly just creatives. But now you’re seeing it in fractional CFOs and you’re seeing it in all sorts of different types of roles. Bookkeepers, website specialists, the whole thing. More technical roles are becoming gig based, 1099 based, able to hire fractionally or remotely or both.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. I think it really opens up the talent pool if you’re opening up to not a specific state, city region, you know, that opens up a talent pool and we could have a whole other podcast on just cost savings. Yes, the CFO is talking about cost savings. But if you only have to have office space for 50% of your team because you’ve created flexible workspaces you have more money to pay your team, to find talent that you might not have been able to reach before, or to be able to help your bottom line as you choose. And so, of course I’m gonna say this, but I don’t see a downside. I don’t see a downside at all.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You know, it’s funny, I have written here in my notes as a prepared for today kind of four things thatwhen I did a talk at a conference a couple weeks ago and I had a whole list of 10 and I kind of picked four of my favorites. And you kind of just hit on a few of them. Like, to me, the cost effectiveness of a remote staff is a huge one. You know, a lot of people don’t know this, but the employee burden cost on average for companies is 23% of what their salary is.And that goes to things like office space or snacks or other, you know. When I was at North Point we were portable, we didn’t have offices and they ran a report that the people who spend the most money on eating out, like, and I always was having meetings, but I was in the top five on that report pretty regularly to a point that I got a reputation and I wasn’t going to crazy meals. We were doing a lot of fast meals, but it was just a lot of them. And I just realized, North Point saved a lot of money, not just my salary when I left. They also saved that kind of employee burden cost as well.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Sure. Yeah. All right. Well, well give us, because you teased us. I wanna know what are some other more.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Yeah, no, I think in addition to that cost-effectiveness, you also have like the productivity. There was a study done a few years ago that they sent people home and this was in a call center, but I do think these ideas kind of extrapolate over different types of roles as well. But work from home, they sent people home for nine months. and all the studies showed that they were 13% more productive. They took fewer breaks, they had less sick days, and they made more calls per minute, all while reporting higher levels of job satisfaction and retention. And I just think if you’re anything like me, you were forced into, and this is not true for you, LZ. It is for me though. At the beginning of the pandemic, I was forced into remote work immediately.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And I had a few remote employees at that time just because we had to in innovate in the way that we staffed leading up to that. But I found myself just getting so much done in those first few days. And I was just like, wow, this is unbelievably productive. And, we engage really quickly in tools like Slack and other type of project management tools that really equip you to work with people that are not in face-to-face all the time. But it really did, it promoted productivity. So, yeah. No, I had kind of cost effective and productivity was one of the kind of benefits to businesses that we we’re seeing that are kind of definitively kind of laid out. Is that something you saw when you came to BELAY a long time ago? You know, like and you’re kind of the numbers person. Like how have you seen that play out?

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I was gonna tell a quick story, it’s gonna date me, but you know, what you were talking about is that productivity piece. So my, son who’s my firstborn was born late 2000, and I can remember working for an organization and handing out laptops for the first time they had docking stations, you know, and I remember thinking, oh, how cool, right? Like, I could bring home my laptop and work.  And then I was fortunate that I worked for a very progressive wealth management company who started to say, ‘Well, why don’t you just spend the morning at home and get some things done?’ It was on dial up back in the day, but almost immediately, I think it, I don’t wanna dumb it down, but I think I became more productive because I felt like my company trusted me more and they were treating me like an adult.

Lisa Zeeveld:

So I wasn’t looking for ways, let me just take another break, because I know so-and-so is probably looking at his desk at me. I feel like it was just a mind shift that I had all this trust and I was being treated like an adult, and I wanted so badly to show them how much I appreciated the opportunity that I went above and beyond where I don’t, gosh, I hate to say that now. That’s sort of embarrassing, but I don’t know why I would’ve done that had I been in the office. And so I think probably there’s some you know, psychologist out there who’s done research on this that I haven’t read. But that really says like, when you’re given an opportunity that maybe isn’t common or that the person who’s giving it to you is going out on a limb, you feel like an obligation to do a better job.

Lisa Zeeveld:

And so I feel like that to me, all the way back in 2000, I mean, I started to see that I ended up taking time off of work. I decided that I really wanted to serve my family. Felt like God had led me to do that. And then it just BELAY made sense. And I think that as I look at the thousands and, and I don’t wanna give away secrets, but the thousands of folks that we have applied to our jobs every month, I feel like that’s what they’re looking for. They’re looking for that trust. And I feel like they’re really wanting to work pretty dog gone hard. It’s not because they want to slack off and, and get paid not to do a job. I think they just wanna be treated like an adult and trusted and they’re gonna prove everybody wrong. Who thinks that you can’t do good from home?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Well, and I, you know, obviously we both work at BELAY and we believe in this product, but that’s, we say all the time that it’s harder to become a BELAY virtual staff member than it is to get into Harvard. Because of, of how low our hiring rate is versus how many people are applying. And I think what we see with that, and the stats show this, is that people who are trusted, they give you more time than what you pay them for. Almost always. And that’s especially true in the virtual environment is, the more you trust these, the kind of virtual staff, remote staff, the more likely they are to go above and beyond time and time again. All the stats are showing that. So I’m not surprised to hear that’s true in your experience.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

I will tell you one of the other kind of, kind of benefits to businesses is the long-term retention. And I think that is kinda what you’re talking about is you feel trusted, so you wanna stay longer. I think that kind of, that kind of jumps into a couple different reasons. I think the first is when we give people more flexibility, we trust them, they’re more likely to stay committed to an environment for longer. At the same time, virtual staff, fractional staff, hybrid staff, modern staff, however you wanna say it, they really do give you the opportunity to hire some roles that maybe you couldn’t before, that then support staff that they wouldn’t have otherwise. And I just really believe the name of the game moving forward, you’ll probably, I’ll probably say this five more times for times, is that the way to be successful in this landscape moving forward is to hire the very best people you can and do everything you can to keep them.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And I think we often look at, hey, should we pay them better? Should we have more, better benefits? And I think all those things are really important. I think the, I think we’re gonna see the landscape of work change pretty radically over the next few years as it, as it, we can all settle into this. But I do think one way that a lot of people are not thinking about is that how are we resourcing our high capacity leaders to be successful? Are we giving them a virtual assistant when all of a sudden you couldn’t necessarily have a full-time assistant in the office. You could have potentially a fractional assistant. You’re giving them a little bit of time, a little bit of support, or have someone who’s supporting multiple people or other types of roles that allow them to accomplish more faster.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And all of a sudden you’ve given them the resources to be successful. And so they’re more willing to stay longer term. At the same time, those virtual staff are willing to stay longer because you’ve given them flexibility. And if you use a solution like BELAY, this, I won’t promise this is the last time I’ll plug BELAY, but maybe, is, unfortunately, my experience leading a pretty large team in my last role was the roles that had the highest turnover were the ones that were kind of most annoying to backfill. They weren’t always those senior roles, you typically got a little more longevity. It was the like, ‘Oh gosh, I don’t even know how to tell somebody how to do that over and over and over again,’ but, if you use a solution like BELAY, the continuity of service is kind of part of the process. It’s part of the product that you’re, you’re kind of, you’re, you’re hiring, you’re buying. And so I really, I think that long-term retention is a huge value to a business by embracing new and modern ways to staff.

Lisa Zeeveld:

And I love that you just talked about like, some of those harder-to-fill roles because we have seen it that a lot of, and I think, you know, I’ve read, you know, probably 10 articles on it here that you’re seeing this sort of mass exodus in the workforce right now over those roles, like more retail service type roles, right? And I love the folks that fill these roles because they’re so typically focused on client service. Like I would hire them for any role in a company. Like, I believe I can train you how to do anything, right? But they want the flexibility. It’s not so much, I mean, everybody wants to make more, let’s be real. But it’s not that they’re leaving, you know, that job and looking to make double, they’re happy with the job. They just want the flexibility.

Lisa Zeeveld:

And so to your point, some of those harder-to-fill roles because there’s typically more turnover it doesn’t have to do with always the salary it has to do with that. They just wanna be maybe challenged a little bit more and they want some flexibility. And what I have found, I was talking with some friends of mine yesterday, is that when you are able to partner a virtual staff member with a leader who is looking to delegate, there’re slowly but surely gonna delegate higher end tasks. And that starts to elevate that person. And, you know, we’ve got some phenomenal stories that, I don’t wanna let the cat outta the bag, but when people literally have left BELAY with the leader that they were working with are now helping to run those businesses. And so I think that’s, I mean, gosh, what a cool story to talk about.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

I mean, our own CEO, Tricia. You know, she started as a VA and then is now the CEO of this unbelievable company. You know, that really leads me to my kind of last of the ones that I wrote down here, but it’s leadership development. And I think that plays out in a couple different ways. One, you forces you to delegate. So that person that you hire, they take on more and more responsibility. You trust them more and more. You’ve developed them as a leader. I think at the same time, one of the benefits I saw in my last role was, you know if you were anything like me, the holy grail of leadership was getting to manage someone, right? And it was like, oh, when am I gonna get to lead a team or manage a person?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And you have these young leaders that are pretty green. They’re super high capacity, and you are trying to find steps for them to take in their leadership. And I really think being able to give them fractional support, whether it’s some sort of a, you know, gig economy type, you know, creative role or it’s a virtual assistant, it gives them some really low stakes management and delegation experience that you can then coach them in a much safer way on how to manage people instead of just like, ‘Okay, well here’s a five-person team and good luck with Susie. She’s a real doozy’ … And I really think that being able to learn that skill when it’s when no one else is looking and then grow into that, is gonna help teams grow stronger over time. And you’ve created more smaller steps for your staff that isn’t just a new title or isn’t just, okay, go lead this team now. It’s like, ‘Hey, let’s do that.’ Because what I have found with a lot of my friends, they actually really don’t enjoy managing people. That’s not what they’re great at. Because honestly, leading the fun people is the most fun part of the job.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Sure.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You can fill in the opposite of that from there. You know, like, that ends up being the most stressful part of your day. And I really love, like, and I’m one of those people who like developing young leaders, helping people realize their potential, learning how to adapt to an environment that’s like what gives me life. Like I love managing teams and developing people. But even then, like, it is the most stressful part of your day when it’s not good, you know, when it’s bad. So I think that engaging in new and different staffing ways gives you more cost-effective, safer ways to grow leaders. And then I’d say just like the third kind of point under leadership development for me is I found that when I had to move into a hybrid environment where I had some staff in person and some staff, you know, online or virtual or remote, it really brought a ton of clarity to what was important and what wasn’t.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Because leading people remotely forces you to be a better leader. Because you have to be clear, you have to set clear objectives, you have to engage with systems, whether it’s, you know, KPIs or one sentence job descriptions or something that, you know, is really clarified how, the staff wins. Like what makes them winning in their job because you can’t watch them every moment. And it also forces you to hire better. Because if you have somebody, you have to manage their time and be in front of them on, let’s be honest, we all know this. They’re not the person you should have hired anyways. And so moving into a role like this, it elevates your leadership. And that’s what I saw time and time again and some, anyway, those are some of the things that I have kinda written down of, of benefits for companies if they were to engage in that. And I think it’s worth, it’s worth considering.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. No, I love that. I can see some folks right now saying, yeah, I mean, I get it. But on the other end, every leadership article that I pick up you know, every podcast and blog I read is talking about culture. And so where does culture fit into this? If I’m doing this hybrid model, to your point, Ryan, where you’ve got some team members who are in your office and some who are not, how do you manage that? And how do you make sure that the culture experience is consistent?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

I think culture is about consistency and clarity as much as it’s about anything else. And I have found that having a hybrid staff forces you to be more clear, not less. And it forces you to be more intentional, not less. And the dividends that it pays are greater because of that, both in person and online. I became a better leader in every aspect when I had to engage this way because it forced me to be laser-focused. What I realized, and I was really guilty of this, I, you know, I saw, I was doing a lot of creative work and the gig economy was kind of five years ahead of this trend. Like, people were like, ‘Oh, wait, I can go work from home, work for seven different agencies and make five times what I’m making.’ And, I had a hard time time in discouraging someone from doing that.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

I’m like, well, yeah, I mean, you’re right. You should I look at all the pros and cons, it makes sense. But I was pretty hesitant. And so in the beginning I like was like, ‘Hey, no, you still need to come to meetings, be in person, you can just do your work from home’ or whatever. But I really saw that over time it became clear to me what was placating my leadership, what was culture. Sometimes culture was just, I wanted people to laugh at my jokes. And it was like, ‘Oh, we’re all around the table. Look at us. We’re all laughing. Great culture.’ Or like, I want them to lean in when I said something and I realized pretty fast that in as all of us as leaders, it’s our leadership. We’re evaluating and we’re growing in self-awareness and all these things. But I realized that so much of my leadership actually was placating my personality. Not something that was moving the needle with the staff that I was leading. And by moving into a hybrid environment, it just became crystal clear what worked and what didn’t. What was staff members realizing, oh wait, if I laugh at Ryan’s joke. And I, that’s just a very, you know, low-level example. Sure. Yeah. But I do love telling jokes and I like people laughing at them.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

But you know, like when people are buying into where we’re going, it became really clear to me what worked and what didn’t when we moved online. And I realized fast for me that so many of the things that I thought were important, nine times out of 10 had more to do with the way I wanted to feel about the team than the way the team felt. And so it forced me to reevaluate that. It forced me to ask questions, it forced me to engage with other people and really wonder and explore what works and what doesn’t. And clarity, consistency and definition of how to win, how to be successful and having fun while you do it seemed to be way more important than, ‘Oh look, we were able to go to lunch after that hard meeting and now I feel better because I kind of had to give them a hard time because we didn’t meet expectations here’ or whatever.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right, right. Yeah. That’s, yeah, that’s really good. I mean, you can’t hide behind the vicinity that you’re all in, right? Like, you can’t hide behind the fact that you just are all in the same room and that Sally isn’t very happy with you right now, but you brought her a treat and you gave her a gift card, and she should be happy now because that’s not gonna go very far. So I love that you touched on that.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

You know, I, there are pros and cons of this in our culture, obviously, you know, I think a more virtual exchange has decreased the quality of dialogue in our culture in so many other places, political and all sorts of things in society. But in the context of the work environment, it just, it cuts through and it’s like, you know what, if Susie was in front of me because we are humans, she’s gonna smile, and then I’m gonna take that smile with, ‘Oh look, we’re better now’ and then I’m gonna not lean into the hard conversation. And engaging people virtually in a hybrid, flexible, fractional way, it really does push you to be a more self-aware, a more emotionally intelligent leader. And that was the biggest takeaway for me. And, and I think, you know, I think that is a really hard truth.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And so it’s much easier to go, ‘Well, we just all have to be in a room to feel good.’ I said, ‘Well, we all have to be in a room for you to feel good, not for the employees to feel good.’ And I just, yeah. I was so guilty of that time and time again. I’ve actually gone back to my old team and I’ve apologized in some of the ways that I felt like, ‘Hey, gosh, I could have led better there. I’m really sorry.’ And yeah, because I realized moving especially into this environment and through the pandemic, gosh, there was so much to learn so fast and it just, it was like putting those glasses on at the doctor’s office and you’re like, ‘Oh, I see it clearly now.’

Lisa Zeeveld:

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think what you just said there is very powerful about let’s getting everybody in a room is to make you feel better, not them feel better. And that’s deep. And I think that’s, that’s definitely worth repeating. Where do you see remote work heading? Where do you think we go from here?

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Yeah. Can I tell a story? Can I respond to that question with a story?

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah, I love your stories.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

So when I started my career at NorthPoint, and for those who don’t know, NorthPoint is one of the most successful churches in America. It’s one of the largest. And Andy Stanley is the lead pastor, and he’s just a prolific writer, an unbelievable preacher. But honestly, his leadership and his content around leadership is some of the most inspiring stuff. don’t wanna promote another podcast over ours necessarily, but the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast is just wonderful.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Golden golden. Yeah.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Yeah. It’s a must listen for me. Yeah. But I when I started at North Point, it was in the early 2000s, and I was the very first millennial hired at NorthPoint. And I guess that makes me an elder millennial. I think geriatric millennial is another one, which is how I feel some days now. But I remember walking into my boss, his office, and he had a Harvard Business Review article on his desk, unlike my first day. And it was ‘How to Lead Millennials.’

Lisa Zeeveld:

Oh gosh. No.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

Well now you probably remember this more than I do in some ways, but it’s all anyone was talking about in the early 2000s. It was, yes, millennials are coming to the workforce and boy do they stink, they’re lazy and they’re entitled and it’s gonna ruin everything America is over. Yes. And I remember walking in and realizing, ‘Oh my gosh, I have an entire generation on my back that I have to represent.’ But the thing that I saw through my boss and through the people at NorthPoint was a willingness to lean in because they recognized that embracing this cultural trend was not an option that they had. And for them to be successful in the future, they had to change the way that we engage with staff. We had to find ways to coach and help people adapt, you know. But I remember several weeks into my job looking at my calendar, not having a meeting, and I just texted my boss and said, we both had the very first iPhone and so we thought, thought we were cool. And I texted him and I was like, ‘Hey, I don’t have any meetings today. I’m gonna work from home.’ I didn’t ask. I just told him. Turns out not how I should have done that, but he was unbelievably gracious. We had a conversation about it. But it was one of those things that in my mind I was like, well, ‘Why would I drive all the way there? If there was no reason I can do it here.’ I’d never not had a laptop.

 

Lisa Zeeveld:

Okay. You just aged me.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

We did at home like as a child, but like my very first computer was Sure. 17-inch Power Book, you know, and that was before Macs were cool. But, you know, I saw this societal trend and, for our listeners who remember this, they remember it. It’s all anyone was talking about. And I think we are in a watershed moment just like that now. We are in a moment where the landscape of  staffing, the landscape of the type of talent that you can attract and how you attract them is radically changing. And you have two options. You can move forward and learn and change and adapt, or you can put it on the list of reasons why your business is harder to do than everybody else’s. And I just really think that we’re gonna see this. I don’t think the number’s gonna go down. I think it’s gonna go up, I think flexible in different types of versions. We’re in a very unsettled part of this, in my opinion, in the industry, but just like when millennials entered the workforce. And I’m sure there’s a story before that that I don’t know. And it’s funny because I have a staff member now who’s right out of college and it feels like eternities of distance between, so I was the young person for so long and now I do not feel that way anymore.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Well, I can tell you this, I’m part of the generation that brought about Casual Fridays. Ooh. So that was like revolution. Like, nobody wanted to show … I mean, you could not come to work in jeans, like, who do you think you are? And so not as big of a deal, but yeah, my generation was, nobody was casual until Casual Fridays.

Ryan Fitzgerald:

And, once again, another trend that, you know what, right? When people realized they could wear jeans to work, they were gonna start prioritizing places that let them wear jeans. And now it’s at, now it’s all sorts of stuff, right? We don’t even need to talk about what pants I’m wearing right now. But I do think that that is where things are going and that is what we’re gonna have to figure out. And for businesses to succeed, it’s gonna be attracting the very best talent you can. And doing everything you can to keep them. And if you can do that without embracing remote work, good luck. I don’t think that that’s gonna be an option for most businesses though moving forward.

Lisa Zeeveld:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. Well, Ryan, thank you so much. You have gifted us with incredible information today. And I know it’s gonna help our listeners. You know, better than anyone else, that we’re doing this really cool thing these days. And that is, we are offering bonus content for our listeners. And so I know you’ve agreed to stick around and help us record some bonus content for our listeners to hear. So hold on tight. And for you out there who are listening, you definitely don’t want to miss this question that Ryan and I are gonna dive into. It’s about the overlooked benefits of remote work. In order to hear that clip, you must subscribe to our email list, and we’re gonna send you a link to that content. Or you can visit onenextsteppodcast.com where you can find the link and our show notes.

Lisa Zeeveld:

What a fun conversation with Ryan. Oh, I loved having him in the hot seat for a change. Now, as you know, every week we offer one next step for our listeners. Head to the show notes page for today’s episode to access today’s hybrid workforce management resource and take the first next step towards elevating your business. Well, thank you guys so much for tuning in for this week’s One Next Step. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe on Apple Podcast or follow us on Spotify. And if you’re ready to start accomplishing more and juggling less, go to belaysolutions.com. Join us next time for more practical business tips and tools to help you advance your business one step at a time. For more episodes, show notes and helpful resources, visit onenextsteppodcast.com.